banshur69 (banshur69) wrote,

Версии NU.DU.ZU в дискуссии на

Исходная заметка

Gebhard Selz:
Dear Vladimir, interesting suggestion; I have the following problems with it, plaing tzhe advocatus diaboli: 1. nu7 is attested only late; do you have Sumerian contextual evidence? 2. nu and lu2 are just phonetic / orthographic variations of the same Sumerian word, like nu-gal for lugal etc. 3. Further, there are a number of other "phonetic" writings in Gudea. 4. Further the Falkensteinian /u/ /i/ variation is not impossible. In fact such variations are well-attested thruout the Sumerian trad
ition, e.g /su/ and /si/ and more. In my opinion such variations may point to a Sumerin phonem, perhaps an Umlaut, which could by Akkadians not be rendered adaequately. Best: Gebhard.

Dear Gebhard, thank you very much for your answer. I think it is equivalent to NU in Nudimmud, Nunamnir and Numushda, maybe from NUN? In this case nu couldn't be derived from lu2. I do not know any other example with NU.DU.ZU as ni3-du zu, but there are many examples with ra2-zu in Gudea A. And, of course, phonetic change must be not i > u, but ing > u. Best. Vladimir.

Thomas Balke:

Dear V. Emelianov, I understand the passage under consideration (Cyl. A iii 2) as a genitive construction with Gatumdug as meant Agens, and thus analyse: nu-rá(DU)-zu iri-na(-k) "(Gatumdug), the one (= NU), knowing (= zu) all the ways (=a-rá) of her city"; this makes sense in my opinion and doesn't require so many phonological changes as, for example, in the classical Falkenstein proposal! Regards, Thomas E. Balke (Münster)

Dear Thomas, thank you very much for your answer. But in further lines there is no information about any 'ways' and many cases with ra2-zu as 'supplication'. I wonder, why you understand NU as 'one'? Regards, Vladimir V. Emelianov.

Rim Nurullin:
Dear Vladimir, Almost the same interpretation has been proposed by S. Paulus in TUAT NF 7, pp. 12-13, fn. 70.

[S.Paulus. Die Tempelbauhymne Gudeas von Lagasch. P. 12 'Die Fuersprecherin ihrer Stadt'. P. 13, Anm. 70 'Dagegen wird die entsprechende Form als nu-ra2-zu (nu- als Praefix zur Kennzeichnung einer 'Funktionsbezeichnung' und ra2-zu 'Gebet') aufgeloest'.]

Dear Rim, thank you very much for this useful reference. Of course, it is only hypothesis in footnote to literary translation, but I'll quote it. As to her version, I can say that we can also understand nu as reduced form of nun 'prince' (as, perhaps, in Nudimmud, Nunamnir and Numushda). Paulus's idea of nu- as prefix for identification of functionaries is not good, because nu- in such words as nu-esh3 < lu2-esh3, but Gatumdug is not lu2. So, I think there are 2 possibilities for nu-: a) 'begetter'; b) 'prince'. And her translation 'Fürsprecher' should be understood as 'the reason of prayers (in her city)'.

T. Balke:

Dear Vladimir, sorry, I have to elaborate my proposal! With the assumption, that the passage represents an epitheton of Gatumdug, I analyse the sequence /NU.DU.ZU/ as consisting of (1) NU-, as in the lexemes nu-banda3 or nu-gig, where underlying /lu2-/ changed in a specific phonological environment (= /nub/nug-/) into /NU/, while NUN "prince" is actually a mere variant of NIN "lord", at least in my opinion, and (2) the either the noun (a)-rá "way" + verbal zu "know" or, which is equally plausible, (a)-ra/ra2-zu "prayer", what would make the goddess to either describe as a kind of "piestess of the prayer (for the city)" of " as someone knowing all the ways (= accesses) (of the city)"! These are my proposal, usually presented in my introductory classes! What do you think about it? Regards, Thomas

Gebhard Selz:

hello both: First: We should note that Falkenstein himself states in AnOr 30, 33 "nicht ganz sichere Deutung". Pleas note also the other syllabic wrtings collected by A.F., loc cit.) Second: I absolutely agree with Thomas that nin and nun are simply variations of one and the same wurd, and as I said earlier /i/ and /u/ often alternate. This is highly important to understand the application of nin as epithet or regens of explicitely MALE deities. (all other sepculations around are clearly nonsensical...) Third: That /nu/ in all the examples mentioned by Vladimir actually represents a (dialectical(?)) variant of lu2 is very posibble amd likely: This is supported, amongst others, by the Ebalitic syllabic rendering of lugal as nu-gal as well as by nu-banda§ = laputtû(m) , etc. Fourht: It is nearly beyound doubt thata the expression NU.DU.ZU refers to Gatumdug as I said earlier and which is also the notion of Thomas. Fifth: Thomas proposal is a possibility, although "prayer" should - to the best of my knowledge - be (a-)rá-zu not (-a)ra alone.. Hence I propose: "Gatumdug,"the one (lú2) (of) prayers", meaning specifically the Lady to whom prayers are (best) adreesed Sixth: When zu actuall has to be undertsood as "knowing" we are left. with ra2 for a-ra2 (no Problem here); but a-ra2 has the primary meaning "ways" (=alaktum) which leads to a possible translation "(Gatumdug,)the one who knows (all) the ways". Finally: If we - for whatever reason - reject the Falkensteinian proposal only these two translations given here under 5 are possible. However, I feel we have not definite proof to reject Falkenstein's ideas, which leaves us altogether with three possible transalten. Hélas: Gebhard.


Hello both. 1. Gatumdug is not lu2. 2. nin is name or epithet of subordinate deities, as well as en is name or epithet of predominant deities. Not male or female. 3. NUN has Akkadian equivalents [nun]] = = = şi-rum [[nun]] = = = ra-bu#-[u2] [[nun]] = = = ru-bu-u2 [[nun]] = = = šar-rum, NIN = beeltu, beelu . These are different words. Of course, I know word play Nun/Nin-ki, but it is not a proof. 4. Who is NUN? nir-gal2-e ni3-tuku gaba-gal2 me-nam-nun-na "(To be) the elected leader, (to be) rich, (to be) brave - (that is) ME of NUN-Heit". So, NUN is not NIN. 4. I agree that nu as 'begetter' may be the latest meaning. But it is possible to derive this word from nun (cf. a-nun-na 'semen of NUN). 5. a-ra2 = alaktum is offtop in this text. It is not the Epic of Gilgamesh. Gatumdug is not known as the deity of ways or spiritual path. And the word a-ra2 'way' is not known in the Gudea cylinders. On the contrary, ra2-zu is very often word there. Best regards, Vladimir

Daniel Foxvog:

For his suggested solution ni3-du7 > nu-du (GSGL I 33, SAHG) Falkenstein may also have had in mind Cyl B 17:12: ni3-du7 iri-na-ke4 pa bi2-e3. For completeness one might also point out the value sir5 for the DU sign. Compare Deimel's reading sir5-ra2 in a broken passage from a SBH hymn (ŠL I 75:78) where he compares our Cyl A passage, thus siskur-ra2 > sir5-ra2?? But sir5 seems to be a later term. In the end, Falkenstein's idea looks best to me, since one expects in the epithet a participle, 'she who knows the X of/in her city', parallel to the preceding line 'she who preserves life in the country'.


Dear Daniel, thank you very much for your comments. I think that these two examples couldn't be compared to each other, because ni3-du7 pa3-e is very often phrase in the Gudea texts, but one cannot meet ni3-du7 zu there. Do you know any other text with ni3-du7 zu? As for Deimel's reading, sir5 (NU)-ra2-zu means 'offering (and) supplication', without any subject or agens, or 'she who knows the offerings'. But there is no sense. Why Gatumdug one who knows the offerings? The main emotion of this extract is supplication of Gudea to Gatumdug. For him she is 'source or supplication'. However, thank you very much, I will think.

Gebhard Selz:

Reason writing again is my faulty quote in my earlier posting, instead of AnOr 30, 33 read, of Course, AnOr 28 (or GSGL I). I do not think that any of the proposed hypotheses (including mine) has more plausibility then A.F.'s. The context of the passage clearly asks for a description of Gatumdu-g, how Vladimir arrives to his transalation without acknowloding a /nun/ > /nin/ change escapes me. By the way the writing nun-ki instead of the common nin-ki is clearly motivated by the aim of disambiguation, because d-nin-ki has to be read d-eresh-ki, earlier form of d-eresh-ki-gal. (nu >) lú - just a possibility - is gender neutral, however not very convincing here. But cp. the well attested OS PN nin-lú-gu10 "The Lady (is) my (responsable) Person". a-rá and (a-)rá-zu are well attested in Lagas sources, but (sometimes) difficult to understand, for me at least . Cp, Cyl. B 1:15: ensi2-ke4 diĝir iri-na-ke4 ra2-zu im-ma-be2 with shag4-ge-a-rá-bí-dug4 (PN) and en-kur-re2-a-rá-nú; on related forms see Krecher ZA 63, 198f, Krebernik AOAT 296,48f. Best: Gebhard.

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